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Gold916
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06-Oct-2013 22:58

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Wow...must relax a bit wor..lol
Now got family Liao
Everything must think think first...

Stockcham ( Date: 06-Oct-2013 16:50) Posted:

Bro, my previous debt not all from broking. Lose money go borrow from friends, relatives, insurance company etc. Pay for losses n hold some counters. Use the scripts (last time got scripts) as collateral n get loan from finance company n buy again. Then margin call comes in, so borrow again to top up. Top until cannot top up. So sold everything take back $100. Those were the days....young so impulsive. ..hoot n hoot....lol.

duofu1285 ( Date: 06-Oct-2013 14:55) Posted:

Bro SC,

How come you can owe for 10 years? I thought contra losses must be paid within 30 days MAX? if not you will be barred from trading? Did you negotiate a repayment deal then?

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spss1955
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06-Oct-2013 18:22

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Hi SC and ST, thank you both for a very interesting debate. I'm sure the readers have benefited from the salient points presented by the 2 of you.

I believe all the key points/arguments have been raised by both and it's best now to agree to disagree and move on. In the final analysis, I see the 2 of you having the same goals, ie to make money but using different strategies and approaches.

Now it's left to the readers to adopt and apply the 2 different approach to stock trading (gambling?) as they see fit. Huat ah.

star-trader ( Date: 06-Oct-2013 17:56) Posted:

SC

I think you get me wrong.. :)

I don't mean generally contra is like casino punting, what I mean is the way you play any stocks(non-fundamental) using contra T+5 without considering the risk, buy and sell within the T+5, or cut loss when T+5 arrived will do more harm than good. Is like gambling, either open big/small without knowing the true value of the stocks.

But, nevertheless this is your trading style, like what you said, as long as can make money, any style also consider good.. :)

Huat ah..!

P/S to Everyone: " Always remember, trading a " worthless" stock although with much " publicity" is as much as losing half the battle although sometimes you
are lucky enough to ride the uptrend wave and earn the profit, but at the end of the day, the lose will be unbearable "

Star-Trader

Stockcham ( Date: 06-Oct-2013 17:01) Posted:

ST,

I knew about the difference in trading style n that's why I didn't want to continue to discuss further because it won't end. But since you brought up again, then I share my view. If contra play is the same as casino punting, then day traders or full time traders are all gamblers, n not consider a profession.

Anyway, I respect your trading style n has never doubt that your trading style is not workable. As long as can make money, any style also consider good.

Huat ah!

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joseeng
Master

06-Oct-2013 18:16

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Bro, I believe u also used to bet on soccer?

Stockcham ( Date: 06-Oct-2013 16:50) Posted:

duofu1285 ( Date: 06-Oct-2013 14:55) Posted:

Bro SC,

How come you can owe for 10 years? I thought contra losses must be paid within 30 days MAX? if not you will be barred from trading? Did you negotiate a repayment deal then?

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star-trader
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06-Oct-2013 17:56

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Stockcham ( Date: 06-Oct-2013 17:01) Posted:

star-trader ( Date: 06-Oct-2013 14:32) Posted:

SC,

Yes, for discussion only.

Well there are really different approach and view on how we trade:

Firstly, I don't trade contra, if needed only I will activate CFD.

Secondly, I don't treat stocks like gambling, if a stock fundamentally not strong enough (money losing, mgmt issue, etc etc) .. I won't trade as buy/sell in my short term trading even though that stock can have so much " publicity" . At the end of the day, it will be worthless if the trade doesn't turn your way and force to sell in the short period of time.

Thirdly, Once I have interest to trade a stock for short term trading, I will prepare a plan, a) if I am comfy with the stock's fundamental for my short-term trade,draw support/resistance,technical indicators, trendlines,volume and entry/exit points.

To your question on my short term duration:

Basically:

Short-term: 0 - 1 month

Mid-term: 1 - 3months

Long-term: more than 3 months

Everybody has their own gauge on what to set for the short,mid and long term. For my case, it is the above.

My short term can be as short as 1 week, depending whether my stocks hit the resistance. In stock, another term needs to take note is Support/Resistance.

Once hit the Resistance, I will make sure I take the profit during the time the stock is still in positive uptrend based on the technical indicators, I will buy again

when it hits the Resistance if the stocks are still in uptrend. So in this way, I have made few cycles on one particular stock as the uptrend is still intact.

From what I feel, contra(your so called short term) is like punting in a casino, if it doesn't go up in that short term, you got to sell, and after selling, if it rebounded, you defintely lose those hard earned money. If everyone can just buy and sell the next day, everyone will be rich in no time..

Anyway, as mentioned previously, this is just my view and if you have been doing this all the while with profits, then just be it as that is the right method for you.

Till then,

Star-Trader

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Netengineer
Senior

06-Oct-2013 17:12

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bro duofu. many of us are with you. paper loss, money loss.. but lets try not to put our weekend down. :D tmr need to have 'war' again. have some rest. chuan dao qiao tou zi ran zhi. cheers! hoping for the best tmr too!

duofu1285 ( Date: 06-Oct-2013 16:53) Posted:

bro...so scared of 9am tomorrow. paper losses 4.5k dunno how to payback :(

Stockcham ( Date: 06-Oct-2013 16:50) Posted:

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Stockcham
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06-Oct-2013 17:10

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Bro, You know I nearly brought up your famous quote on "Blue Shit" during the discussion on fundamental. I totally agree with you. It is the people and not the kind of trading that makes one broke. Don't worry your puay kee will be very safe. ..Huat ah!

warrenbegger ( Date: 06-Oct-2013 14:32) Posted:

Last post before I fly, wish my plane don't drop into the sea and will be back..

In any kind of investment, one of the main key to survive is about RRMMC (Risk Ratio Money Management Control).

No matter Contra, trade, investment or gambling in any kind. Without Discipline and RRMMC, u will be kill by the rotten luck some days.

No ones is lucky or unlucky forever, is how u control yourself. That's why so many lose and only just a few that consistent win throughout the years.

Is not changing the view about the market to win, is changing your self and how to guard against those cruel market. To survive and to get the best odds.

Gambler bets all they got, if lose they borrow and fight back. They wish luck will come one times, lose they stay and fight, win they want to win even more.

Smart player only play within their means, they put only 1 finger to test the outcome, and not the whole hand or arms. They don't depend on luck, but on self control.

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Stockcham
Elite

06-Oct-2013 17:05

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Kum sia bro! Heng you are not referring to me as the one who promote contra play. If not I'm sure i will kena jialat from the sj bros here....lol. Frankly bro, you are good in this fundamental thing. If you can share more i can learn more from you.

Huat ah!

SFGuyRuleZ ( Date: 06-Oct-2013 12:56) Posted:

Hi Bro Stockcham. Sorry for the misunderstanding. I am not referring to you but just saying from a general viewpoint, not referring to anyone in particular. I know you are sincere and I also benefited from your buying and selling volume theory, which I applied and observe when I am free and I do think they are useful. Just want to serve as an alternative voice here, so youngsters can think twice or at least more informed when they decide they want to be contra players.

In the stock market, everyone has different styles of " playing" . Some people can do very well in contra or short-term trading, some people can do much better in investing or mid-long term trading. Asking them to suddenly swap styles with each other can do more harm than good and they will fail miserably. My point is that one has to know or at least figure out his/her own style, then decide his/her role in the stock market. But when you attempt a certain style for many times and really tried very hard and still don't work, perhaps, it is time to revamp a brand new strategy for this particular style, or to even change style completely, as that person is just not cut out for that particular style. Just my own humble thought and opinion.

Cheers and huat ah!! And have a lovely sunday to everyone!! =)

Stockcham ( Date: 06-Oct-2013 10:55) Posted:

Bro SFGuyRuleZ, thanks for sharing. I hope you are not referring to me promoting contra play in this thread. I don't promote contra play, neither will I advice peoples not to play contra. Everyone here is an adult and they are pretty sure of the risk of contra play. To give this kind of advice is a waste of time in my opinion because I believe everyone knows about it. Take for instance, you can tell someone not to smoke. Do you think the person don't know the risk of smoking?. We have to be realistic bro. Many peoples indeed play contra including those who invest long term. You can advice them 100 times they still play. Put it this way. If someone die die wants to join the sport of wrestling, do you think by telling him how dangerous this sport is will help?. He will have to be knocked out seriously before he rethink your advice. Some may give up but some are determine to be a good wrestler. So after being knock out, he stands up again and trained better so that he will not be hit hard the next time. The reason why I shared here is not to tell everyone that contra play can make a lot of money easily. Instead of telling peoples not to play contra, it is better to put it some realistic action by sharing with them the skill so that they can protect themselves. They will lose less or starts to make money after months or years of trading with knowledge. The main reason why peoples loss a lot of money until broke is not because stocks trading. It is because of each person's character. Young people are impulsive just like me in my younger days. Loss so much already hoot bigger so that can make back the losses. This is the main mistake. When market is good, can place more bets. But when market turn against us, we should reduce our bets or get out completely. When I gamble with my friends during the CNY, the stake is min. $10 and max $300. When banker is on form, I will bet $10. When banker have no form, I will slowly increase my bet to max $300. Of course the banker friend buay tahan me lah...lol...

Btw, I like to see your sharing because you seems to be very good in fundamental. It is be very good if you can share regularly some good counters with very good fundamental or potential so that some bros & sis can consider to buy and keep. This will really helps them.

Good luck! Huat ah

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Stockcham
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06-Oct-2013 17:01

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star-trader ( Date: 06-Oct-2013 14:32) Posted:

SC,

Yes, for discussion only.

Well there are really different approach and view on how we trade:

Firstly, I don't trade contra, if needed only I will activate CFD.

To your question on my short term duration:

Basically:

Short-term: 0 - 1 month

Mid-term: 1 - 3months

Long-term: more than 3 months

Everybody has their own gauge on what to set for the short,mid and long term. For my case, it is the above.

My short term can be as short as 1 week, depending whether my stocks hit the resistance. In stock, another term needs to take note is Support/Resistance.

Once hit the Resistance, I will make sure I take the profit during the time the stock is still in positive uptrend based on the technical indicators, I will buy again

when it hits the Resistance if the stocks are still in uptrend. So in this way, I have made few cycles on one particular stock as the uptrend is still intact.

Anyway, as mentioned previously, this is just my view and if you have been doing this all the while with profits, then just be it as that is the right method for you.

Till then,

Star-Trader

Stockcham ( Date: 06-Oct-2013 11:29) Posted:

Sure no hard feeling Star-trader. Just discussion nia.

I only agree with you to an extend. In the first place I have to know whether the short term you are referring is T+5 contra play or holding for a few weeks or months because it seems that we are coming in from different angle. My short term is referring to T+5....No pick up of shares. If what you said is referring to T+5 trading, then I have different view from you. When playing T+5, BBs or Funds interests in a counter come first. I may buy now and sell the next day, or on the same day. I only need to look at past history on chart for basic info. only but do not require to do a 10 years series chart analysis in so detail. I only have 5 days. I cannot afford to buy a counter with very good fundamental and then sit there to wait for BBs to push up. In contra trading, BBs or Funds interests and TA is the priority in my opinion. We need to choose a counter where Bbs have immediate interests in the counter.

Let's talk about mid-term trading. Do you buy stocks based on good fundamental and keep it for a period of time regardless whether big players are interested?. If I want to pick up a counter for mid term, I won't do that. I will see which counter BBs or Funds suddenly have interest in it, and then check out the fundamental or potential of this counter. By doing this way, I can see the return faster. Time is money. We cannot afford to buy a counter and wait for BBs to come in. Anyone who is in the market for long will definitely realised how come some very good fundamental stocks move so slow or don't move while others can move so much, or how come those trading way below their NAV, low debt, high ROE, good EPS for the past 3 years etc... don't move. When we buy a counter, we don't buy a counter because it won't drop so much when market turn against us. We buy a counter which we expect them to move up a lot. If you noticed, counters which have potential moved more than those with good fundamental.

At the end of the day, whether we buy short term or mid term, when market starts to correct it is better to get out and not to hold them tight. Especially in a serious correction, whatever counters also will not be spared. The difference is only drop more or less only.

Just my view.

Huat ah

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duofu1285
Member

06-Oct-2013 16:53

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bro...so scared of 9am tomorrow. paper losses 4.5k dunno how to payback :(

Stockcham ( Date: 06-Oct-2013 16:50) Posted:

duofu1285 ( Date: 06-Oct-2013 14:55) Posted:

Bro SC,

How come you can owe for 10 years? I thought contra losses must be paid within 30 days MAX? if not you will be barred from trading? Did you negotiate a repayment deal then?

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Stockcham
Elite

06-Oct-2013 16:50

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duofu1285 ( Date: 06-Oct-2013 14:55) Posted:

Bro SC,

How come you can owe for 10 years? I thought contra losses must be paid within 30 days MAX? if not you will be barred from trading? Did you negotiate a repayment deal then?

Stockcham ( Date: 05-Oct-2013 22:12) Posted:

Bros n sis, what I've just shared about paying my debts for 10 years is true. I'm not joking. I went through hard times to gain my experience. That's the reason why I tried to answer as many PM as possible. I don't want you all to go through my steps. It's not easy. Really not easy. How did I managed to stand up?....I keep telling myself this...."I owe money nia mah, it's not going to take away my life. Just pay slowly lor"

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TofuLeg
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06-Oct-2013 14:56

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The most storied and important trader who ever lived, Jesse Livermore, was not of the mindset that there was always some kind of action to be taking. Livermore himself sums it up thusly: ?I learned early that there is nothing new in Wall Street. There can?t be because speculation is as old as the hills. Whatever happens in the stock market today has happened before and will happen again. I?ve never forgotten that.? Jesse left behind a wealth of knowledge about the art of speculation. His exploits have educated, influenced and inspired every generation of trader since Reminiscences was first published in 1923. Here are nine important things Jesse Livermore said regarding excessive trading:

1. ?Money is made by sitting, not trading.?

2. ?It takes time to make money.?

3. ?It was never my thinking that made the big money for me, it always was sitting.?

4. ?Nobody can catch all the fluctuations.?

5. ?The desire for constant action irrespective of underlying conditions is responsible for many losses in Wall Street even among the professionals, who feel that they must take home some money everyday, as though they were working for regular wages.?

6. ?Buy right, sit tight.?

7. ?Men who can both be right and sit tight are uncommon.?

8. ?Don?t give me timing, give me time.?

9. ?There is a time for all things, but I didn?t know it. And that is precisely what beats so many men in Wall Street who are very far from being in the main sucker class. There is the plain fool, who does the wrong thing at all times everywhere, but there is the Wall Street fool, who thinks he must trade all the time. Not many can always have adequate reasons for buying and selling stocks daily ? or sufficient knowledge to make his play an intelligent play.?

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duofu1285
Member

06-Oct-2013 14:55

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Bro SC,

How come you can owe for 10 years? I thought contra losses must be paid within 30 days MAX? if not you will be barred from trading? Did you negotiate a repayment deal then?

Stockcham ( Date: 05-Oct-2013 22:12) Posted:

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star-trader
Senior

06-Oct-2013 14:32

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SC,

Yes, for discussion only.

Well there are really different approach and view on how we trade:

Firstly, I don't trade contra, if needed only I will activate CFD.

To your question on my short term duration:

Basically:

Short-term: 0 - 1 month

Mid-term: 1 - 3months

Long-term: more than 3 months

Everybody has their own gauge on what to set for the short,mid and long term. For my case, it is the above.

My short term can be as short as 1 week, depending whether my stocks hit the resistance. In stock, another term needs to take note is Support/Resistance.

Once hit the Resistance, I will make sure I take the profit during the time the stock is still in positive uptrend based on the technical indicators, I will buy again

when it hits the Resistance if the stocks are still in uptrend. So in this way, I have made few cycles on one particular stock as the uptrend is still intact.

Anyway, as mentioned previously, this is just my view and if you have been doing this all the while with profits, then just be it as that is the right method for you.

Till then,

Star-Trader

Stockcham ( Date: 06-Oct-2013 11:29) Posted:

star-trader ( Date: 06-Oct-2013 08:56) Posted:

SFGuyRuleZ,

Well said. I totally 100% agreed with you.

To be honest, I am not good in fundamental as I am a chart technical analysis person but to be in the stock market trading, once have no choice but got to get the grasp of the fundamental of the stocks first before applying the Technical Analysis on it. Yes, contra is not the way to go.. some stocks need nurturing as big traders might accumulate before the stocks can go uptrend even though the charts looks positive for that time you see it.

To your quote below,

..............Bro, I've mentioned in my previous post before that it depends on whether one wants to invest in stocks or play stocks. Fundamental is important if one want to invest in stocks. Anybody who are in the market can see that in a bull market, counters without fundamental can move a lot while many good fundamental counters do not move as much. You can see that fundamental becomes secondary in a bull market. So if one wants to play stocks, we should follow the flow so that we can makes money. But of course when market starts to correct, the reverse will happen. Those without fundamental will likely die first and can die jialat jialat. I'm not an investor. I'm a short term player and so I follow the flow and analyze what BBs going to do next with the help of TA. I don't focus too much on how good a company is........

********* I would like to give some opinion and thoughts on this. No hard feeling.. I won't say all the Penny stocks are really no

fundamentals, there could have some " minority" of the Penny stocks that really good business sense but once got to make sure

that this penny stocks really that case before applying the technical analysis on it.. Because if you look at all the good fundamental stocks, look at the " bird view" .. you will notice that the chart will go down but will rebounded to the value of the stock or price.

You can pick anyone of them and do a " 10 years series chart analysis" and see for yourself. Even a short term player,

will need to safe guard the stocks that you going trade so that any downsides, it will recover back when the value

of the stock is there.

But of course, value of the stock will change over time. So each time to trade on a stock, once got to ensure the latest

value of the company and business cyclical is still there to trade short term using technical analysis.

All the best.

Star-Trader

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warrenbegger
Elite

06-Oct-2013 14:32

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TofuLeg
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06-Oct-2013 14:18

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To add on on the 3 mentioned counters. Ytd saw the news on breadtalk as well, with the launch of it's new headquarter, they are aimming to expand their overseas marekt. If any bro and sis want a long term investment, perhaps can look into Breadtalk. Huat ah!! Huat ah!!

camukaba ( Date: 06-Oct-2013 12:28) Posted:

Yesterday's Business Times named EMS Energy, SingHaiyi and Hankore as " more fundamentally supported stocks" . For your info bro. I didn't look into them so I dunno how true that statement is.

Spivvy ( Date: 06-Oct-2013 10:45) Posted:

Any pennies with good fundamentals to buy in this round of correction??

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SFGuyRuleZ
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06-Oct-2013 12:56

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Stockcham ( Date: 06-Oct-2013 10:55) Posted:

SFGuyRuleZ ( Date: 06-Oct-2013 00:07) Posted:

Contra can be really fun and addictive, and can also allow one to earn lots of money out from nothingness. However, it can also allow one to lose more than he/she can afford. True that some traders are really good and can earn alot from contra, but this kind of " game" is really too dangerous for most people. Therefore, in my own humble opinion, even if one is very good in contra, he/she should never promote or emphasize the merits of contra as it is just too dangerous. The gambling addiction will start once a person loses money, and he/she wants to contra more and cover back their losses. Even for those who are really good and can easily win alot from contra, they will have the idealogy that riches come easy. Some may not even want to work for the rest of their life. If everyone just stay at home to contra, what will this world and the economy become?

But, I do admit that sometimes, playing contra just abit as a healthy and leisure form of gambling is really alright, like what some said - to earn kopi money. Furthermore, playing with a stop loss and being not greedy, it should really be fine. But trying to make a living out from contra and to get rich super fast is just not too right, in my opinion.

You are right when you say that the longer you keep, it doesn't mean the more you make. When back to investing, one should always ask himself/herself the intention in the first place why he/she invested that sum of money in the stock. Is it for capital gain? Or is it for dividend yield? What prospects or fundamentals did he/she see in that business that one is able to invest that sum of money in it? If the fundamentals of the business have changed, whether higher debt, poorer earnings, competitors, outdated technology, overall bad market outlook, lousy management, etc..., and they are no longer in line of what you see when you first invested, one should always start to sell and look for other better opportunities. Having said, for investing for long term, it is always better to invest in companies that are undervalued and gives dividends. For capital gain and growing companies that does not give dividends or that give low-yield dividends, and their earnings are already stable for many years with limited growth, one can then valuate them according to their dividend yield and risk or debt level. If the yield is too poor despite being cash rich and stable earnings, I would also sell for I no longer see the value in that company. Blue chip companies in general give about 3 - 4% dividend yield.Not here to challenge anyone, but after yesterday's bloodbath and some of the new threads here in SJ, I can't help thinking of myself and another older friend of mine who once also contra, trying to get rich fast. I even went to the extreme of tapping into my credit and cashline limits to tank my losses. When you contra, you really do not have the holding power and market is always uncertain. And you can never gauge how market reacts to certain news, or when some news suddenly pop out. I am lucky to lose only a little before I wake up. Anyway I am also not here to preach, and I am actually only 26 (turning 27 this year), despite from some PMs that people thought I am already very old. I don't dare to say I know alot about stocks and investing, but I have taken an interest in investing since young and have done paper trades before I started real investing. I am also lucky to have my uncles who are businessmen and taught me alot about shares and investing. So this is just to share a little about me also, if that matters. Cheers!! =)

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Spivvy
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06-Oct-2013 12:41

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Thanks bro one of them has been in my watchlist. The other 2, esp EMS, i will keep them under my radar. EMS cheonged and almost broke above 10c but has corrected since. Now is ard 7c i think? Bro SC or anyone can shed some light? Im not a very technical or fundamental person, i just go with the flow & instinct and try not play contra. I exited all my positions before last week and now looking for the right opportunities to buy good potential companies. Thanks.

camukaba ( Date: 06-Oct-2013 12:28) Posted:

Yesterday's Business Times named EMS Energy, SingHaiyi and Hankore as " more fundamentally supported stocks" . For your info bro. I didn't look into them so I dunno how true that statement is.

Spivvy ( Date: 06-Oct-2013 10:45) Posted:

Any pennies with good fundamentals to buy in this round of correction??

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camukaba
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06-Oct-2013 12:28

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Yesterday's Business Times named EMS Energy, SingHaiyi and Hankore as " more fundamentally supported stocks" . For your info bro. I didn't look into them so I dunno how true that statement is.

Spivvy ( Date: 06-Oct-2013 10:45) Posted:

Any pennies with good fundamentals to buy in this round of correction??

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Spivvy
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06-Oct-2013 12:18

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And yes. Bro SC u said Dow may hit a triple top if it cant cross 15,000. So we have to wait & see how Dow goes first before committing. What do you think will be safe point for us to re-enter based on the big US pic?

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Spivvy
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06-Oct-2013 12:15

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Bro SC, your advice on thee last post well noted. Wait for correction in the next 2 weeks, then look for those good fundamentals (potential to move up with BBs interest), buy in small amounts as mkt corrects, then keep for the MT or LT. Dont contra play.

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