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Hankore onward march to 8-10cts. Post Reply Rate topic
Spivvy Senior	18-Nov-2013 14:58        Spivvy About Contact  Quote this Post!   Mood:
x 0   x 0  Alert Admin	Hi new6ie. Just woke up not long. C mkt no morale again. Hk shares cheong like mad. HK like dead.
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Share7 Senior	18-Nov-2013 11:56        Share7 About Contact  Quote this Post!
x 0   x 0  Alert Admin	Waiting at 6.4c cccx123      ( Date: 18-Nov-2013 11:10) Posted: Let's see how strong the floor of 6.4cts is..lol
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cccx123 Veteran	18-Nov-2013 11:10        cccx123 About Contact  Quote this Post!
x 0   x 0  Alert Admin	Let's see how strong the floor of 6.4cts is..lol
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new6ie Senior	18-Nov-2013 09:18        new6ie About Contact  Quote this Post!
x 0   x 0  Alert Admin	Note that I am not referring to Hankore specifically.   I am generalizing about how many company directors know the way to build personal fortunes when given a chance to head a public listed company. Of course there are many honourable and honest leadership and we cannot rule it out.   So the important thing is playing shares are not the way to get rich for many.   Just be nimble and treat it as a past time, and don't keep shares of 500 listed companies like what I read recent of one gentleman. Naturally, he is a rich man and has too much money not in use. But how many of us are like him? Hankore is also just for playing, when down buy a little, and when up sell some. I believe it is better to wait a little while and watch how the consolidation works out first. Then make a decision to invest or stay away.   Lol. new6ie      ( Date: 17-Nov-2013 16:25) Posted: Then a listed company will " owe" tens of millions " or even hundreds of millions over some years" and we as share holders may not even know how it was derived (this debt).   Finally they will call right issues or placements, got the funds and pay themselves off and become filthy rich happily thereafter. Of course, accountants and auditors are good at figures and know how to do it properly, wahohohoho!!   starlene      ( Date: 17-Nov-2013 16:20) Posted: I recalled when H.K was 0.078-0.079 OCBC wrote that it is a good buy with potential in water treatments in PRC...now u know when formerly a reporter want to take a large stake in H> K initially and spent time away from his family..now David rewarded himself with so much options..share dilution..very easy just give yourself more shareoptions and so much..no restrictions..in share directors enttitled to issue up to 10% of paid up capital
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reknab Member	18-Nov-2013 01:10        reknab About Contact  Quote this Post!
x 0   x 0  Alert Admin	Thanks bro Share7      ( Date: 16-Nov-2013 13:28) Posted: The `leaked' document caused Shanghai and Shenzhen bourse to cheong on Friday. Read CNBC. The article said details will be released next week.   reknab      ( Date: 16-Nov-2013 13:13) Posted: Interesting. Bro do you have a source here? Or just based on some market chatte
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new6ie Senior	17-Nov-2013 16:25        new6ie About Contact  Quote this Post!
x 0   x 0  Alert Admin	Then a listed company will " owe" tens of millions " or even hundreds of millions over some years" and we as share holders may not even know how it was derived (this debt).   Finally they will call right issues or placements, got the funds and pay themselves off and become filthy rich happily thereafter. Of course, accountants and auditors are good at figures and know how to do it properly, wahohohoho!!   starlene      ( Date: 17-Nov-2013 16:20) Posted: I recalled when H.K was 0.078-0.079 OCBC wrote that it is a good buy with potential in water treatments in PRC...now u know when formerly a reporter want to take a large stake in H> K initially and spent time away from his family..now David rewarded himself with so much options..share dilution..very easy just give yourself more shareoptions and so much..no restrictions..in share directors enttitled to issue up to 10% of paid up capital
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cccx123 Veteran	17-Nov-2013 16:22        cccx123 About Contact  Quote this Post!
x 0   x 0  Alert Admin	Didn't see any clawback provisions here.. Lucky03      ( Date: 17-Nov-2013 15:25) Posted: Some companies do practice pegging certain conditions of growth and achievements and not automatic new6ie      ( Date: 17-Nov-2013 15:08) Posted: That's how all Singapore listed company directors get richer and richer by " printing" paper money that can be converted to hard cash and further think of more ways to get richer still. Who wants to give the answer: at whose expense? Wakohwa!
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starlene Elite	17-Nov-2013 16:20        starlene About Contact  Quote this Post!
x 0   x 0  Alert Admin	I recalled when H.K was 0.078-0.079 OCBC wrote that it is a good buy with potential in water treatments in PRC...now u know when formerly a reporter want to take a large stake in H> K initially and spent time away from his family..now David rewarded himself with so much options..share dilution..very easy just give yourself more shareoptions and so much..no restrictions..in share directors enttitled to issue up to 10% of paid up capital
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Lucky03 Veteran	17-Nov-2013 15:25        Lucky03 About Contact  Quote this Post!
x 0   x 0  Alert Admin	Some companies do practice pegging certain conditions of growth and achievements and not automatic new6ie      ( Date: 17-Nov-2013 15:08) Posted: That's how all Singapore listed company directors get richer and richer by " printing" paper money that can be converted to hard cash and further think of more ways to get richer still. Who wants to give the answer: at whose expense? Wakohwa! Lucky03      ( Date: 16-Nov-2013 16:31) Posted: David rewarded himself with 66m options :).
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new6ie Senior	17-Nov-2013 15:08        new6ie About Contact  Quote this Post!
x 0   x 0  Alert Admin	That's how all Singapore listed company directors get richer and richer by " printing" paper money that can be converted to hard cash and further think of more ways to get richer still. Who wants to give the answer: at whose expense? Wakohwa! Lucky03      ( Date: 16-Nov-2013 16:31) Posted: David rewarded himself with 66m options :). new6ie      ( Date: 16-Nov-2013 16:13) Posted: Many people would agree that Mr. Paul Lim has the credit for keeping the company afloat during the interim when the previous management of Hankore (P.K.A Biotreat), were giving nightmares to investors.   Though Paul was a proxy, he respectfully did his work commendably.   Nevertheless, we must also give credit to David in the following couple of years when he pulled the company from the brink to profitable today.   However, we do not know the intentions of David to call for consolidation.   He could have other alternatives, couldn't he? There are so many ways to raise funds, which is obviously his intention.   Not vested now, as have sold all my HK shares earlier.
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Lucky03 Veteran	16-Nov-2013 16:31        Lucky03 About Contact  Quote this Post!
x 0   x 0  Alert Admin	David rewarded himself with 66m options :). new6ie      ( Date: 16-Nov-2013 16:13) Posted: Many people would agree that Mr. Paul Lim has the credit for keeping the company afloat during the interim when the previous management of Hankore (P.K.A Biotreat), were giving nightmares to investors.   Though Paul was a proxy, he respectfully did his work commendably.   Nevertheless, we must also give credit to David in the following couple of years when he pulled the company from the brink to profitable today.   However, we do not know the intentions of David to call for consolidation.   He could have other alternatives, couldn't he? There are so many ways to raise funds, which is obviously his intention.   Not vested now, as have sold all my HK shares earlier.  Lucky03      ( Date: 16-Nov-2013 15:58) Posted: Totally agree that Paul is a special case as his contribution and indeed his leadership had been a big factor for Hankore to stay afloat and having the chance to turnaround and should be duly appreciated and rewarded. Hopefully it is a one off exercise for directors as not all deserve similar recognition.
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new6ie Senior	16-Nov-2013 16:13        new6ie About Contact  Quote this Post!
x 0   x 0  Alert Admin	Many people would agree that Mr. Paul Lim has the credit for keeping the company afloat during the interim when the previous management of Hankore (P.K.A Biotreat), were giving nightmares to investors.   Though Paul was a proxy, he respectfully did his work commendably.   Nevertheless, we must also give credit to David in the following couple of years when he pulled the company from the brink to profitable today.   However, we do not know the intentions of David to call for consolidation.   He could have other alternatives, couldn't he? There are so many ways to raise funds, which is obviously his intention.   Not vested now, as have sold all my HK shares earlier.  Lucky03      ( Date: 16-Nov-2013 15:58) Posted: Totally agree that Paul is a special case as his contribution and indeed his leadership had been a big factor for Hankore to stay afloat and having the chance to turnaround and should be duly appreciated and rewarded. Hopefully it is a one off exercise for directors as not all deserve similar recognition. leeeta      ( Date: 16-Nov-2013 15:54) Posted: Lucky you are right abt conflict of interest..but dont forget that these directors are the ones who assisted David in steering the company around. Paul has been through a lot with people slandering and calling him names in AGMs.. Without   Paul being interim CEO for some period and now director, David will have a much tougher steering the ship now. These are the ones who stuck around when HK was in deep sh1t. So   this option is a reward for them and is a one off...and I believe is a fair on top of the director fees they receive. The shareholders at the AGM recognizes their achievements and approved the proposal.
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Lucky03 Veteran	16-Nov-2013 16:05        Lucky03 About Contact  Quote this Post!
x 0   x 0  Alert Admin	Oops, typo error, not 'precious' should be 'previous'..... Sincerity is very important to build trust. Lucky03      ( Date: 16-Nov-2013 16:02) Posted: I don't know Paul's role when the precious management and directors were ousted and the subsequent of roping David as the white knight. I witnessed Paul's unwavering faith and positive attitude and display of resolve to give a new lease of life to Biotreat over many AGMs. He is the pillar ! Lucky03      ( Date: 16-Nov-2013 15:58) Posted: Totally agree that Paul is a special case as his contribution and indeed his leadership had been a big factor for Hankore to stay afloat and having the chance to turnaround and should be duly appreciated and rewarded. Hopefully it is a one off exercise for directors as not all deserve similar recognition.
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Lucky03 Veteran	16-Nov-2013 16:02        Lucky03 About Contact  Quote this Post!
x 0   x 0  Alert Admin	I don't know Paul's role when the precious management and directors were ousted and the subsequent of roping David as the white knight. I witnessed Paul's unwavering faith and positive attitude and display of resolve to give a new lease of life to Biotreat over many AGMs. He is the pillar ! Lucky03      ( Date: 16-Nov-2013 15:58) Posted: Totally agree that Paul is a special case as his contribution and indeed his leadership had been a big factor for Hankore to stay afloat and having the chance to turnaround and should be duly appreciated and rewarded. Hopefully it is a one off exercise for directors as not all deserve similar recognition. leeeta      ( Date: 16-Nov-2013 15:54) Posted: Lucky you are right abt conflict of interest..but dont forget that these directors are the ones who assisted David in steering the company around. Paul has been through a lot with people slandering and calling him names in AGMs.. Without   Paul being interim CEO for some period and now director, David will have a much tougher steering the ship now. These are the ones who stuck around when HK was in deep sh1t. So   this option is a reward for them and is a one off...and I believe is a fair on top of the director fees they receive. The shareholders at the AGM recognizes their achievements and approved the proposal.
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Lucky03 Veteran	16-Nov-2013 15:58        Lucky03 About Contact  Quote this Post!
x 0   x 0  Alert Admin	Totally agree that Paul is a special case as his contribution and indeed his leadership had been a big factor for Hankore to stay afloat and having the chance to turnaround and should be duly appreciated and rewarded. Hopefully it is a one off exercise for directors as not all deserve similar recognition. leeeta      ( Date: 16-Nov-2013 15:54) Posted: Lucky you are right abt conflict of interest..but dont forget that these directors are the ones who assisted David in steering the company around. Paul has been through a lot with people slandering and calling him names in AGMs.. Without   Paul being interim CEO for some period and now director, David will have a much tougher steering the ship now. These are the ones who stuck around when HK was in deep sh1t. So   this option is a reward for them and is a one off...and I believe is a fair on top of the director fees they receive. The shareholders at the AGM recognizes their achievements and approved the proposal.   Lucky03      ( Date: 16-Nov-2013 15:36) Posted: You are right. Can't stop the trend of companies issuing options or shares as part of remuneration packages for senior executives as part of staff retention and to incentive them. However, it is not as common to issue option to directors who are usually paid through director fees. That will avoid potential conflict of interest in case all ended up engrossed in short term growth for the purpose of pushing the share price higher when the directors have a higher call of duty to ensure transparency, governance and long term sustainability.
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leeeta Veteran	16-Nov-2013 15:54        leeeta About Contact  Quote this Post!
x 0   x 0  Alert Admin	Lucky you are right abt conflict of interest..but dont forget that these directors are the ones who assisted David in steering the company around. Paul has been through a lot with people slandering and calling him names in AGMs.. Without   Paul being interim CEO for some period and now director, David will have a much tougher steering the ship now. These are the ones who stuck around when HK was in deep sh1t. So   this option is a reward for them and is a one off...and I believe is a fair on top of the director fees they receive. The shareholders at the AGM recognizes their achievements and approved the proposal.   Lucky03      ( Date: 16-Nov-2013 15:36) Posted: You are right. Can't stop the trend of companies issuing options or shares as part of remuneration packages for senior executives as part of staff retention and to incentive them. However, it is not as common to issue option to directors who are usually paid through director fees. That will avoid potential conflict of interest in case all ended up engrossed in short term growth for the purpose of pushing the share price higher when the directors have a higher call of duty to ensure transparency, governance and long term sustainability. new6ie      ( Date: 16-Nov-2013 15:31) Posted: I don't disagree with what you said, but if the traded price of HK is about 0.064, then the difference is not much.   But if HK goes to say 8 cents, there is a motivation to make money by exercising the options in exchange for the HK shares in order to be able to sell at 1.6 cents profit per share. At the higher price, some people who are already holding the mother shares would also be enticed to sell off their shares (equivalent to the number of options they have) and then exercise the options to have back the original number of shares again.   This could also prevent prices from rising higher
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leeeta Veteran	16-Nov-2013 15:38        leeeta About Contact  Quote this Post!
x 0   x 0  Alert Admin	This is a form of reward and keeping good and able employees to spurn them on..which is a good thing. Lots of MNCs does it, like mine and only for top senior execs anyway. new6ie      ( Date: 16-Nov-2013 15:00) Posted: In Singapore context, when options given to staffs are exercised, new shares are issued. In some cases, a small consideration is paid,  since these options could be an incentive for " good work" . In other cases the money is the strike price that was fixed at the time of giving out the options.   Shareholders normally get diluted with such new shares being issued.   That is why, at AGM or SGM when they ask for a mandate to issue shares (directors will claim that SGX said to get this mandate ready every year) don't approve the mandate.   Pay higher salaries, why pay in shares for good work? lictenau      ( Date: 16-Nov-2013 14:17) Posted: just curious, when options are exercised, where do the shares come from? Is this an exercise to reward those receiving the options but financed by the market instead of their own coffers?
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Lucky03 Veteran	16-Nov-2013 15:36        Lucky03 About Contact  Quote this Post!
x 0   x 0  Alert Admin	You are right. Can't stop the trend of companies issuing options or shares as part of remuneration packages for senior executives as part of staff retention and to incentive them. However, it is not as common to issue option to directors who are usually paid through director fees. That will avoid potential conflict of interest in case all ended up engrossed in short term growth for the purpose of pushing the share price higher when the directors have a higher call of duty to ensure transparency, governance and long term sustainability. new6ie      ( Date: 16-Nov-2013 15:31) Posted: I don't disagree with what you said, but if the traded price of HK is about 0.064, then the difference is not much.   But if HK goes to say 8 cents, there is a motivation to make money by exercising the options in exchange for the HK shares in order to be able to sell at 1.6 cents profit per share. At the higher price, some people who are already holding the mother shares would also be enticed to sell off their shares (equivalent to the number of options they have) and then exercise the options to have back the original number of shares again.   This could also prevent prices from rising higher. Lucky03      ( Date: 16-Nov-2013 15:18) Posted: Issuing more shares through option will indeed have dilution effect on dividend payout, NTA plus EPS. However, given that Hankore will unlikely announce any dividend in short term, capital gain is the motivation for most and it is only logical that any exercising of any option can only mean the share price has appreciated significantly above $0.064. Everybody should still be happy, right ? So, option will motivate the holders to work towards delivering growth to drive the price higher. Only concern if they got their priority wrong and strategies are increasingly short term focus and do more harm than good in the long run. Options are increasing unpopular for Spore companies where most shares do not have the potential to see price appreciation as the economy is more matured and hence most switch to issuing shares instead. This will need the companies to buy back shares from the market or issues more. To exercise option, the option holders will need to pay up the price of the option so in this case, the executive and directors of Hankore will have to cough out $0.064 per share to exercise option. Hankore will experience some increase in capital too.
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n3wbie Member	16-Nov-2013 15:35        n3wbie About Contact  Quote this Post! Style: Flexible
x 0   x 0  Alert Admin	Definitely important highlights to take note, thanks for pointing that out Lucky03! My stance is that internal restructuring efforts such as consolidation of shares are necessary and appropriate steps for the Group at this point in time. When the " house-keeping" efforts are completed, it can then be on a fresh page when it comes to handling externalities and look at expansion, etc. Just my two cents worth though.  Lucky03      ( Date: 16-Nov-2013 14:56) Posted: Don't forget that with opportunities also comes competition. Hankore needs to be seen to be able to win more contracts or expand its current portfolio through acquisition. No sure win just because of having the right strategy and having the right growth story. n3wbie      ( Date: 16-Nov-2013 14:37) Posted: Personally, I find that the water waste treatment industry in China has a positive prospect going forward especially with the Chinese government's stance on addressing environmental issues. That being said, while we expect HanKore to trade at an improved premium from its current valuation of about 14+/-x P/E, I believe that it will still be traded at a discount from its peers listed on the HKEX such as 371.HK or even the newly listed IPO, 1363.HK for the simple fact that SGX listed companies generally fetch a poorer valuation (at least in my humble opinion).   Comparatively, if we look at SIIC Environment (SGX: 5GB) which is currently trading at about 21x P/E, we can perhaps take the ballpark figure of about 17-18x P/E as a good gauge of where it should be, eventually.  Going through the comments made about HanKore, I think that the current share price is also a result of the market noise, which is common in the wake of a potential consolidation exercise. While I noticed that the main bulk of volume traded of HanKore seems to be above yesterday's closing price of S$0.065 and many are probably suffering paper loss, it boils down to asking yourself the underlying question of " Why did you put your money in this counter in the first place?" - a short term momentum play or are looking at a 3-5 year horizon for your investment returns? if it is the former, then it does not make sense to take a position when the counter had already ran up 20-30% and you failed to be disciplined enough to cut-loss when share price retreated due to others taking profit or simply a case of share price consolidation. I believe this is a counter whereby the fundamentals are sound and the management is taking baby steps to structure the Group for a stronger positioning in the long haul. With prolific investor(s) being the substantial shareholder, should it not be a pledge of confidence in itself already? Overall, I am " long" on this counter but waiting for the best entry price no position at this point in time.
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new6ie Senior	16-Nov-2013 15:31        new6ie About Contact  Quote this Post!
x 0   x 0  Alert Admin	I don't disagree with what you said, but if the traded price of HK is about 0.064, then the difference is not much.   But if HK goes to say 8 cents, there is a motivation to make money by exercising the options in exchange for the HK shares in order to be able to sell at 1.6 cents profit per share. At the higher price, some people who are already holding the mother shares would also be enticed to sell off their shares (equivalent to the number of options they have) and then exercise the options to have back the original number of shares again.   This could also prevent prices from rising higher. Lucky03      ( Date: 16-Nov-2013 15:18) Posted: Issuing more shares through option will indeed have dilution effect on dividend payout, NTA plus EPS. However, given that Hankore will unlikely announce any dividend in short term, capital gain is the motivation for most and it is only logical that any exercising of any option can only mean the share price has appreciated significantly above $0.064. Everybody should still be happy, right ? So, option will motivate the holders to work towards delivering growth to drive the price higher. Only concern if they got their priority wrong and strategies are increasingly short term focus and do more harm than good in the long run. Options are increasing unpopular for Spore companies where most shares do not have the potential to see price appreciation as the economy is more matured and hence most switch to issuing shares instead. This will need the companies to buy back shares from the market or issues more. To exercise option, the option holders will need to pay up the price of the option so in this case, the executive and directors of Hankore will have to cough out $0.064 per share to exercise option. Hankore will experience some increase in capital too. new6ie      ( Date: 16-Nov-2013 15:00) Posted: In Singapore context, when options given to staffs are exercised, new shares are issued. In some cases, a small consideration is paid,  since these options could be an incentive for " good work" . In other cases the money is the strike price that was fixed at the time of giving out the options.   Shareholders normally get diluted with such new shares being issued.   That is why, at AGM or SGM when they ask for a mandate to issue shares (directors will claim that SGX said to get this mandate ready every year) don't approve the mandate.   Pay higher salaries, why pay in shares for good work?
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